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i was always told the honda bikes were pretty reliable and cheap to maintain and fix
Eh, most owners don't put enough miles on them to generate major failures, so superficially them seem reliable. If you never put more than ten or fifteen thousand miles on the bike then you never get to the types of routine service procedures that cost an arm and a leg. Find out how much it costs to adjust the valves on most modern sport bikes. Figure eight to ten hours of labor as the bodywork, coolant, radiator and often part of the exhaust have to come off the get the valve covers out. If you set the valve clearance interval at 15,000 miles, most riders will never have to pay for this service. But if you ride 15,000 miles per year, ease of maintenance becomes a consideration in a motorcycle purchase. One of the big reasons I bought a Street Rod instead of a K1200S in 2007 was how ridiculously difficult BMW made checking and adjusting valve clearances on that bike, and the cost of the specialized tools you absolutely need to do the job right and not risk snapping one of those pretty hollow camshafts in half while unbolting the cam caps. All the big in-line fours with shim under bucket valve adjustments are hard to work on. The Street Rod, while still a knuckle buster the first time, is an honest 5 1/2 hour job, seven if any shims need to be changed (on top of the time required for the rest of a major service, it makes a very long day). By comparison, I can check and adjust valves on the old K100RS in an hour or so. BMW twins are even easier.

Most bikes seem reliable enough if you don't put a bunch of miles on them. But when you do have a major failure, the Japanese bikes are often so difficult to repair and worth so little that you sell them for salvage or make a yard ornament out of it.
 

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Discussion Starter #125 (Edited)
Japanese especially Honda been a roaring success in India. I think there policy is pretty good; run the engine for the lifetime of it without much maintainence and at the end salvage it and build a new one for peanut of a price.

Much different from European and American manufacturers where you have to maintain the bike or car more and any damage can cost as much as a new car itself. I can recall the way I had to maintain my last FIAT. Every second day something went Kaput and I had to run to the service centre more over changing timing belts regularly. My current Honda is rock solid not an extra penny spent. Just servicing. And that's the tale of so many satisfied Honda customers out there. Even parts are cheap and built to last. Last I had to change on my Honda Jazz/Fit was Air Filter costing just $10 and lasts 20000 Km. Only potatoes come that cheap.

Amount that Harley charges as Labour Charges for Seal replacement of front shocker single of Street 750 in that amount alone Royal Enfield Folks replace Seal, oil and including labour for Continental GT Single Front Fork and I think Honda won't be any different at least with their upcoming bikes in this price segment.

Honda makes a lot of sense if you are a customer but not if you are out opening a garage to repair and service it. Doesn't make business sense. At least in India I have seen this.
 

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Don't judge all European cars based on an experience with a Fiat. Fiats are, or at least once were, among the least reliable cars on the planet.

A Honda is a disposable bike but something like a Harley, BMW, Ducati or Aprilia you buy and keep, maybe even pass along in your will. They keep their value and are worth repairing when they break. You don't wear them into the ground and toss them out. For these, repairability is an important consideration, one that I see BMW abandoning sadly. Like the old song, I think their going Japanese (funny song if you know the one I am referring to)

I don't know about India, but in the US I can state emphatically that engine, suspension and tune up parts on Harleys are much less costly than those for other brands of motorcycle, including Honda. One of the things that often makes me chuckle are how cheap Harleys are to live with after the sales puke bends you over on the purchase price. Consider that a brand new cast wheel for an XR-1200 only cost me $319 each ( I replaced the stock wheels on one of my Street Rods with wheels from the XR-1200). You can't even buy a used wheel for most motorcycles for that little money. Front brake rotors, I used the rotors for a wire wheel V-Rod, cost $150 each. These are full floater rotors on steel carriers, and nice quality too. The Screaming Eagle Pro Stage 2 Cams, a kit that comes with four camshafts, two velocity stacks and gaskets lists for $499. You can't even buy one camshaft for most bikes for that little money. Price a set of the fully machined cams used in a Yamaha YZF-R1 some time. Whether it's filters (and today why would anyone not have a K&N or similar reusable filter you wash and re-oil at each service?), spark plugs, wheel bearings or anything else, maintenance parts for Harleys are quite reasonable. Labor charges at dealers are uniformly high around here (everyone charges $80-90 an hour around here regardless of the brand, up in the Gay Bay it is closer to $120 an hour, independent shops are uniformly cheaper but buyer beware) and since I do all of my own maintenance, are not factored into my maintenance costs.
 

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How I see it, when it comes to european cars, it's better to buy them new and have warranty you can depend on. if it wasn't for warranty i wouldn't buy them. Still great cars, Europeans know how to build a car.
 

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How I see it, when it comes to european cars, it's better to buy them new and have warranty you can depend on. if it wasn't for warranty i wouldn't buy them. Still great cars, Europeans know how to build a car.
European driving conditions are uniqe, and their car and motorcycle designs reflect this. I never really appreciated the qualities of my trusty old BMW K100RS, why BMW does things the way they do, until I shipped it to Frankfurt for a month long vacation and rode it all over Europe. On their roads, with their traffic patterns and their high speeds (hey, I got passed doing 146 mph indicated by some gray haired old dude in a three piece suit driving a big S-Class, came up behind me in the left lane with his left turn signal on, I got the hint, moved over and he left me like I was chained to the side of the road ! ) along with idiot Italians trying to make three lanes out of two. On it's home turf, all the quirks American motorcycle "journalists" like to carp about when testing BMW bikes made complete sense.

Same with European cars. I rented cars for two days while waiting for the freight forwarding firm to get my bike to Frankfurt. The control layout, sweating making switches that can be identified by touch, placing all the controls on the column, flash to pass features for the high beams that work with or without the lights being on, are all necessary features for the cut and thrust of European traffic that are maybe not so necessary in the more relaxed driving environment and sloppy habits of the US. American car companies put the "dimmer switch" (why is it called a dimmer switch when it if fact turns the high beams on, not off, and then only when the headlights are also on ?) on the floor of the car, something that would never, ever, work in Europe. But you probably would never know that if you were an American and never drove in Europe.
 

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Yes their cars still have Soul and nice to drive! But what Japanese build are machines.
More like appliances. My fiancee has a thing for Toyota Avalons. To me, when you mention a Toyota Avalon, I immediately think about AARP, walkers, oxygen bottles and that smell that old people have :rolleyes: Big floaty boats too with absolutely no driver feedback. But she loves them. Sigh.
 

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Discussion Starter #131
Personally when it comes to driving I absolutely loved my FIAT not same I can say about my current Honda. But reliability and cost of ownership are different issues. One appeals Heart other Head; difficult choice I would say!
 

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Ever drive a Mazda 323 or Protoge? Soul and reliability. Every bit as fun to drive as any Fiat, but reliable. If you ordered the top of the line 1.8 liter engine in a Protoge, you got the exact same engine you found in a Miata. Fabulous engine, revs like a good motorcycle engine, great suspension balance (if you pitch the car just so, snap the throttle off to make the car rotate then stand on it you can get it to drift, which is not usually something a front drive car does except maybe on ice), excellent seats, and understated in a European way. I love Protoges. Here are two generations of them.



 

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Now you started favouring Japanese!
Only Mazdas, and then only their small sedans. The last big Mazda I rented I managed to jettison a wheel cover taking a freewy ramp in Honolulu a bit fast. Had to big loop-de-loo to drive back to that ramp, park on the side of the road, fetch the wheel cover from the shrubs and put it back on before continuing on my way. Huge understeer on that car. No fun at all. But their 323s and Protoges and their Ford badged progeny the Australian built Laser and early 1990s US made Escort were outstanding cars and still are.

Subies are cool too but the only one I ever drove was an early 2000s Impreza WRX. For my torso there wasn't enough front seat room, plus the turbo lag and trailing throttle run-on didn't work for me. In general I don't like turbocharged gas engines.
 

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Discussion Starter #136
BMW recently introduced its S1000R in India, Worthy but odd ball is it's priced at $36,667. Now that's confounding!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #137 (Edited)
I forgot to mention that same sells for $13,150 in USA. The way Beemer is charging premium in India. You get a HellCat for same price in USA. Maybe Pre-Loved!
 

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I've been told that Triumphs were quite troublesome.

They leak oil, they vibrate parts off, and the electrics are pretty bad.

Needless to say, they are unreliable.
 

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Back to the topic of the Thread... I own both a Street 750 and a Triumph Bonneville Street Twin.

The Triumph is quite a bit more powerful - its a 900cc vs the Streets' 750cc. Its also almost 100lbs lighter than the Street 750. But.

On the road you'd never know it. The Street 750 is very flexible, loves to rev and is feels really quick (who'd have thought you could say that about a HD?) The engine is turbine smooth right up until close to the limiter. If only that snatchy throttle roll-on on the Street 750 could be fixed, it'd be as smooth as the Triumph.

The Street 750 feels much more nimble than the Triumph and its very easy to lean in to corners using your body weight. The Triumph handles better in slow corners than the Street, partly due to the throttle issue. But the Triumph is overall more stable and feels better planted. The only other handling issue is that skinny front tyre on the Street 750. We have a lot of grooved concrete roads in Kansas City and that **** front tyre follows every seam and wobble which can be quite unnerving at times, feels like you are riding on ice. It also gets trapped in the seams between the strips of concrete/asphalt. The Triumph handles those surfaces much better, but not perfectly.

Brakes, well, the Street 750 is wooden, takes a determined pull/shove to stop, but it will stop you quickly if you need it to. Oh and what kind of range of motion does HD think we have in our right feet to operate the rear brake pedal? The Triumph on the other hand has exemplary brakes with good feel and very little lever/pedal travel is needed.

The power delivery of the two is completely different. The Street is a 6 speed tranny vs the Triumphs 5 speed and because the Street 750 loves to rev to end up clicking (actually clunking) your way up through the gears, wringing the throttle as you go. The Triumph is much more highly geared - 50mph in 1st, 70+ in 2nd but the power and torque of the engine just pushes you forward. Around town you will only need 1st, 2nd and 3rd on the Triumph where you'll be using 1st to 5th on the Harley.

Overall, the Street 750 is fast, nimble, feels light (even though its not) and just wants to go and zing up through the gears. It sort of feels a little 'loose' build-wise (but its not). The Triumph is more stable, rides a huge wave of power and torque and feels like its machined out of a billet of metal. Everything operates smoothly and with a real quality feel. Its like a BMW/Mercedes type feel to the Triumph.

I love them both, the Street 750's faults are countered by its sheer fun character and willingness to go. The Triumph accelerates lustily in any gear, almost at any speed and sounds wonderful doing so. And it really doesn't seem to have any flaws.

So there you go thats my take.
 
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